#194 Music Careers Uncovered: Are They Really Viable And A Smart Choice? Transcript

THIS IS AN AUTOMATED TRANSCRIPT… PLEASE FORGIVE THE TYPOS & GRAMMAR! xo-Lisa.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 0:33
If your child dreams of a music career, you’ve likely wondered how to help them make it in such a competitive and unpredictable industry. The truth is, the path to becoming a professional musician or finding a related career in the music world is far from linear. Between choosing a direct to career or the college route, auditions, portfolio building and finding ways to earn a sustainable income. It can feel overwhelming to know where to start. I recently moderated a powerhouse panel featuring three experts who live and breathe music careers from every single angle. Dr Christine gangelhoff brings insider knowledge on the college admissions and audition process for music majors. Melissa Mulligan coaches artists in the contemporary music industry bridging the gap between academics and professional success. And spoiler alert, she doesn’t think students should necessarily major in music and Dr Alaina Johnson, a clinical psychologist and parent of three creative young adults, she equips families to support their children’s artistic dreams while building independence and resilience together, we explore how to choose the right college, or whether college should even be part of the plan how to approach gap years, the skills every young musician needs but may not learn in school, and what the future of the music industry holds, Whether your student envisions a career and performance, production, songwriting or an unexpected corner of the music world, this conversation is packed with strategies to help them launch with clarity and confidence. I’m Lisa Markle Robbins, and I want to welcome you to College and Career Clarity a flourish coaching production. Let’s dive right in to this fantastic panel and family Q and

Lisa Marker-Robbins 2:30
A, I’m Lisa Marco Robins master career coach, working with 15 to 25 year olds so that they can launch with career confidence. The rest of our panel specializes in the music industry, and so I’m going to be your moderator today this evening, and we’ve got a fantastic group for you. Dr, G, you gonna go ahead Introduce yourself? Yes, gladly.

Dr. Christine Gangelhoff 2:58
So I’m Dr Christine gangelhoff, founder of soundpath Consulting, and super happy to be part of this amazing panel of basically, we got you covered no matter what your needs are. And so a little about my background. So I so soundpath guides students and families through the college admissions and auditions process. And so my background is in wearing many different hats in the music world. So as a performer, music professor, recording artist, researcher, arts administrator. And so this range allows me to help students see the full scope of what’s possible and choose paths that are both inspiring and practical and at a higher level, I see my role as an advocate for students, but also just in general, as an advocate for the broader idea that creative careers are viable and valuable. So we’ll, I’m sure we’ll talk a lot about that during this panel, but the creative economy is growing, and public understanding is kind of lagging behind that. And so I always tell families I’m seeing a lot of head nodding. And so I always tell families that creative careers are real careers. They don’t they just don’t always follow a straight line. So so that’s a lot of the work that I do. And so in the in my work with students and families, I help identify academic pathways to meet their artistic and personal goals, and then I also demystify the different structures of types of institutions, whether it be conservatories, university liberal arts, and all the many different types of degree paths within that so a, BFA, ba, be used all of that, and then just building a strategic plan to get them through all of that. So again, super happy to be here and part of this panel.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 4:53
Thank you. We’re going to hand it over to Mel, but I just want to say, as we do, we’ve got the. Chat open. We want to take your questions. We you know, this team could talk for hours and hours about many things related to this topic, but we want to make sure that you get what you came here for, what you need. So please utilize that chat live attendees, put your questions in there, we’ve got time built in to be sure that you walk away feeling well resourced. Mel, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Melissa Mulligan 5:29
Well, hi, this is like my favorite topic of all time, so you are right. We can talk and talk about this without coming up for air sometimes. My name is Melissa Mulligan. I am a singer songwriter, producer, music maker myself, and there were several years in my career where that is what I did for a living. I toured. I That was my sole source of income. All my wildest dreams coming true, and now my greatest passion in life is coaching in the music industry. So I am a music industry vocal coach and artist development coach by trade. I’m hired by Grammy winning producers and record labels to develop artists, and I feel like my calling in life right now is helping to bridge the gap between the academic world and the industry. So I call it music career, road mapping. And if you want to have a career in the contemporary music industry like music, production, songwriting, composition, film scoring, video game scoring, singer songwriter, Taylor Swift, Dua Lipa, chapel, Rome, like whoever it is, right that you see yourself envisioning, I want you to really understand the industry before figuring out what you’re hiring college to do for you, and also how you’re going to make a sustainable living while working toward those bigger music industry goals. So that’s why I love being a part of this conversation, and love that Dr G reached out to me so that we could come together, because we’re very like minded about all of this, and I’m excited to bust up some myths for you tonight as well about how all of this

Lisa Marker-Robbins 7:25
works. Excellent. Yeah, we should say this was the dream of Dr G, and we are all grateful for the invitation and just to be in each other’s world, for sure, because we all have a passion of making sure that you know this journey to launch these kiddos. It’s a family journey, and you need, you need coaches and support and cheerleaders along the way. And you know, I, as a mom of five, know that for sure as well. I’m gonna, I know we’ve had more people come in. So again, utilize that chat to give us your questions. If you want your question to be anonymous or you don’t want to ask it publicly, that’s okay. Sometimes, you know there’s things that we want to say or ask and we don’t necessarily want our name tied to it. So you can go ahead and send those in the chat, just put them into the chat only to the host and panelist. We won’t say your name. You do not have to put it out to everybody. This is a safe place to ask the questions that your family’s been digging in on. You do not have to have your name tied to it if you don’t want to. So we will, we will not call you out on that. Okay, Dr Alaina, introduce yourself, please. Happy to I am

Dr. Alaina Johnson 8:41
Dr Alaina Johnson. I am a clinical psychologist. I am the mother of three what I call creatively driven beings. It was through their journey that I kind of never in a million years saw myself parenting children who were going to choose to be this deeply involved in the creative arts. And as I put it, my middle child dragged me kicking and screaming into this world, and here I am, so through my journey of helping them, two of my kids are actors, three of them are musicians,

Speaker 1 9:11
I learned a

Dr. Alaina Johnson 9:13
lot about how the creative mind works and some of the pitfalls and the blockades that would happen and some of the self sabotage and the self doubt and all these things that were coming up in at the same time, I was watching parents struggle with some of the exact same things. So ultimately, I ended up writing a book, parenting talent, and I founded my program, parenting talent, which is about how to really support your child in this creative journey, no matter what that level is, if they’re just very creative young people who are exploring everything, or if you have a 1617, year old who looks at you and says, I want to become a professional musician and kind of like Lisa said, You look up and say, That’s great. I don’t want you sleeping in my bed. Placement when you’re 35 so how are we going to figure this out? So helping parents to kind of understand some of that, bridging some of that gap for them as well, around how does this all work? And how, how am I going to make this happen? And my kid says they want it, but I’m not seeing them put the work in. And why does that all make sense? I try to help, as you talk about that family journey, help the whole family to kind of understand what’s happening, make it make sense and less scary. Awesome.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 10:26
Thank you. So as you heard, we have a great panel today to support you again. The chats open. We got our first question over there that we’ll get to in just a bit. But I want to lead off. You know, for 27 years now, I have worked with students that are college bound, and it is a linear and somewhat predictable path for most college majors. That is not true necessarily of those who desire a music career. So if you guys keep seeing me look down, I’m keeping our questions there, so I can keep my eyes on the chat and on our panel, but I want to let’s lead off with Dr G and then I want Mel, if you could answer the same question for us, when you know that your kiddo in your home wants a music career, what is each of your processes for helping them figure out that college path. So they’re thinking college is part of the equation. They want a music career. What is the process that you as a coach, as an advisor, as a supporter, brings to the table that you’re going to walk them through? Dr, G, let’s start with you,

Dr. Christine Gangelhoff 11:40
sure, so it’s exactly like you said, and not linear, like many degrees and pathways, career pathways, and so one of the first things I do with them is just we’ll get to know the student and get to know their goals, interests and their musical identity, and then just do a ton of exploration and look at different careers that they may not be aware of. And so I work with a lot of STEM students also, and they’re often torn between wanting to do STEM because they feel like that’s the thing that they should do to have a more stable career or income, but their passion is really in music and so, but many of them are not aware that you can actually combine those things and so, so that’s one of the things I do. We look at different types of careers that they can do, and then they get a better sense of what direction that they want to go. So again, most of them are just aware of basically what they know as a performer, educator, those kind of degrees that are more obvious, or those type of careers, I do an artistic assessment to get a sense of where they are artistically and also so not just their ability, but also their level of engagement, to see, because some students will have, they may not be the strongest performer, and their Parents would say, Oh, they they just play video games. But they’re as they’re playing video games, they’re actually analyzing the music, and they’re listening to the music, and they’re, they’re doing all of this on their own, and they don’t consider it really a valid thing, but it, it really is. And so we do a lot of that, and then we start once, once I get a sense of that, we start to explore different pathways conservatory, what’s the best fit for them, and then break down the requirements. And so there’s no surprises, because there’s many, many parts of the application and audition process, and then basically just use a system to organize the whole thing.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 13:38
Yeah, you have to be an organizational ninja to just pathway. I mean, you need to be organized. If you have a kid applying to college period and missed deadlines means missed opportunities, but you You seriously have to be an organizational ninja for sure. You know, I heard you say the word passion, and you know, one of my sayings as a coach that gets people say, Oh, to me all the time, I’m gonna, I’m gonna repeat that. You know, I have seen over the years with the students that I’ve supported, that passion can grow with proficiency. And that’s a that’s a mindset that I think it’s helpful for our kids to have, like, you don’t have to know all the things right away. That’s why we’re going to school. And so did not eliminate something because you don’t yet have proficiency or passion. I those two things can grow and increase as you gain experiences. So passion can grow with proficiency. So that’s a great saying, Yeah, you can use it. I Every time somebody Thank you. I like that saying, I like use it. Please do because I think it’s helpful on the mindset that, like, I don’t have to know all the things right, my word. I’m 56 years old. I don’t know all the things like, you’re going to continue to grow. Mel. What does your process look like? Let’s dig in on and how you do things. I love

Melissa Mulligan 15:04
it, okay. Well, when someone reaches out to me and says, I want to have a music career, can you help me get into music college or pick a college? The first thing I do is say those are two, in my mind very separate conversations. So the first thing I do is I just tease out the music career conversation, and with me, you’re going to start with your unicorn jumping over the rainbow dream. What is your wildly improbable goal? Dream like you’re a teenager that gets to have some room to breathe and be honored and be heard and considered as possible. That is reality. It’s my reality. I work with people whose dreams are coming true every day, that are not famous, but they’re living their best lives. So this is, this is reality. I’m being realistic here. And the real, being realistic means, if you love something and it’s your dream, it’s not going to quit you. So reality says we give that some time. So we spend a fair amount of time on like, what would that look like? You want to be, you know, a famous jazz musician. You want to compose for movies. You want to be a producer. You want to be Billie Eilish. What does that look like? What are the fundamental skills, experiences and talents that you need to be developing and chasing in your life, no matter where you go to college, no matter what you major in, even if you don’t go to college, that road map is different for every person, while we’re figuring that out, then we’re also talking about like Dr G mentioned, there might be some things you don’t know. You don’t know. There might be cool career paths or jobs or sustainable income plans that could be a part of this picture for you. And once we spend time there, then it becomes a little bit easier to discern. All right, so what do you want to hire college to do for you? Right? Because, Lisa, in this scenario, the student knows they want to go, right? What do you want to hire college to do for you? I would say a whopping majority of contemporary music makers don’t choose to major in music. They don’t choose to major in music production or vocal performance or something like that, because you know what? Through private mentorship, you can you can develop more in 12 weeks than you could in four years at Berkeley, in many cases depending upon what your focus is. So if the goal isn’t like, I need a degree in the thing to qualify for this. You know, if that’s not the goal, it opens it up. Now, I am not for everyone. Some people really don’t like that. They’re like, please, don’t open everything up, please. Could we just narrow it down? I have decisions to make, right? Which is why I say like, my passion is really bridging that gap of understanding between the academics and the career. Because the bad news is, there’s no narrow road you have to follow. The good news is it’s really hard to mess up, like you could major in basketball, basket weaving or music production, and I could still help you carve out a career, you know. So that’s that’s my process. I started the at the top, at the big goal, and then work my way down into the weeds. And then, if you are majoring in music, production or music, then for sure, I’m helping you build an awesome portfolio and figuring out your next steps. But if you need, like, the nuts and bolts of like someone really working you through that entire admissions process. That’s where I hand you off to someone like, like, dr, G, I

Lisa Marker-Robbins 18:49
love that. You know, one of the things I heard you say in in that description is it really both kind of hit on it. There are a lot of ways that you could be active musically as a career, right? And one of the challenges for everyone is we don’t know. What we don’t know in is why, like, my launch Career Clarity program, is in a lot of schools too, because even even your school counselor and your college counselor that your kiddo has at their school is not an expert on career advising, career development, or on music or any other path, right? They’re great at being a support for your kiddo in their school. And this is not to slam them, that it is not their job description to do that and one of the things that we do, but it takes time, and this is why I always say to people like, please start by like, sophomore, early junior year on doing the things, because informational interviews and job shadows can open up ideas to you of what might be possible that you don’t even know exist. You know, completely unrelated. I had a. Podcast guest yesterday, who will air this in September, but we were talking about careers in aviation. I learned so much in that time, because there are so many jobs that your kids aren’t even thinking about yet, and so you need the time to explore right and to figure it out. And some parents on here might be thinking, I know not. Some might for sure. There are people on here thinking, I’m worried about my kids majoring in music. I’m worried about my kids having a music career, having a creative career. It. You know, as I was introducing myself early on, I said, you know, our dreams as parents are because we’re not going to live forever, and we don’t want to pay for them forever that they’re standing on their own two feet. So Dr Alaina, you know, as a counselor, as someone who has a program that supports families in this I’ll throw it to you, and then anybody can jump in. But let’s start too when that parent comes to you and says, I’m incredibly concerned about this pathway, but yet my kid is like all dialed in. How do you answer that? Or what advice? What practical advice do you have for families?

Dr. Alaina Johnson 21:22
It comes up a lot, kind of to your point, if you don’t know what you don’t know. So one of the first things I do is I kind of start with, what is your fear? What is the real fear? What does it mean to you when you say, I don’t want my child to be sleeping on the couch in my basement at age 30. What? What is that about? What’s going on with that? And what I find a lot of times we start peeling back the layers, is it’s really about I have no mental image of anything between the trope of the starving artist and the artists I see at the Grammys. And I’m realistic that even if my kid is one of the best singers in the world, it doesn’t necessarily mean they’re going to be able to be one of the singers at the Grammys. And I say Fair enough. There’s a actually whole world of successful artists and musicians between there that are thriving. And when I start pointing out to them all the places that they’re seeing, these musicians, that they’re they’re actually interacting, and hadn’t really thought about that, that those are viable music careers as well. I can usually see some of the anxiety decreasing. So we talk a lot about, what is your child’s plan? How do we get your child to plan? Very, very true high school counselors cannot be an expert on every major. That’s just not possible. And they’re really not experts on music majors, unless maybe your child’s at an art school, and you’re going to luck out in that. But in most typical high schools, they have no idea of what the process is like to get into a music program, a music theater program, or they have this vague idea they have to audition or something, but they don’t. They don’t really understand how early you have to start, and all of those things. So I also encourage parents to get as much support as they can from external sources. This panel is a great example. What do you think your kid wants to do? Are they 100% sure? Okay, so they want to do music but they’re not sure they want to dial in completely on performing, but they’re also really just the idea of music therapy. Okay, well, then let’s go talk to Dr G like, that’s a good referral. Let’s that’s somebody you should probably talk to, even to figure out, I think a lot of students will say music therapy, because they that’s one of the few things they know that’s kind of a college path, that’s not a performance path, and they don’t even understand that there’s so many other options. So by helping the parent also get that same information as the child, information is power, and information can create a sense of calm that happens And real quickly. The other thing that I think comes up that parents have to get honest with themselves about too, that can really help is sometimes there’s almost a sense of shame that they have around the idea that my kid doesn’t want to go to college, or it’s a little embarrassing to say my kid wants to be a musician, because my friends have the same preconceived notions I do of what that means they’re going to be the starving artist, and they feel like, Have I failed? Did I do something wrong by encouraging all of this music stuff? So that’s why I have to kind of peel back the layers and go, What is this really about? And then once we have a good sense, a good sense of what’s really going on, what’s driving your fear, it’s going to help you as a parent, better address it.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 24:27
You know, I I’m all in our program, and when we’re doing our live coaching calls, one of the things that I challenge, particularly parents with, but also teens, is we all have these preconceived ideas, right? And Dr Alaina, I think that goes with what you were saying about like you might have some embarrassment about there’s such societal pressure on the college pathway as the only pathway, which I completely disagree with. Not all of my kids went to college. But can we take I’m going to take my readers to use my exams. Example. But can you hold on to your preconceived ideas and just lay them in your hand and not clench down and grasp them tightly, right? Can we all do that? Can we all be open and be willing to have conversations and to hold them open? I know Mel, it looked like you were going to add something as well. Jump right in.

Melissa Mulligan 25:25
I loved to talk about the I touched on it briefly, but I want to be realistic, you know, like my kid is a dream, and I don’t want to squash the dream, but I want to be realistic. And I don’t have children of my own, so I don’t know the level of fear and concern, the depth of it personally, however, I think the benefit is that I’ve been doing this for a long time, and I’ve worked with 1000s of young adults over the last 20 years, and I can tell you this, I am being realistic. Realistic means, if you are an artistic person, and you have this dream in your heart, and you never really figure out a road map for it, it always just is like a dream. But I’m working on my plan B, which really now becomes my plan A, it comes back to bite you and realistically, how happy and secure in their work is someone going to be if there’s somewhere where it’s not aligned with who they are and what they want to do? I think we all know that when we’re operating in our zone of genius, you know we are at our most successful as well as usually happiest and most content. Now, like we’re all saying, you might not know exactly what that zone of genius is when you’re 16, you might think it’s just singing Taylor Swift songs, right? Like that will expand, and with proficiency, your passions will change. But I think it’s incredibly realistic to give this some time and some breathing room, and get the resources for the things that maybe you feel like out of your depth with because there are people like us who are here and willing to help.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 27:12
I want to take a question that was put into the chat, and we did have questions submitted in advance, and we’ve got so we’ve got a whole list, and I want to kind of bounce around. I’m going to take a general question that I think can benefit everybody. We have some specific questions that have been submitted as well, but let’s, let’s take another general question that can probably benefit every family that’s on here, and let me go back to it. Let’s see. Can you tell us? And this is, this is not uncommon. What I’m about to tee up here, this is not uncommon. It happens in other fields as well, medicine being one and Dr G talks a lot about how there, there’s a she has seen a great overlap with musically talented students and those who have a keen interest in medicine, and it’s it’s often students take a year off a gap year between undergrad and med school. But this parent wants to know, can you tell us what a musical gap year between high school and college could look like, and in what situations do you think they are valuable or not valuable? So there’s gap years, but this question specific about musical gap years, which is not my expertise. So who wants to take that one?

Dr. Christine Gangelhoff 28:38
I can touch on it briefly, and I know Mel will have a lot to say about it, because she, she does a lot of work with that and and I think it it is definitely has to be very specific to the student. And it can work in some instances, and in some it can be really challenging, because, for example, in the classical music world, I think it’s not very common, because it’s the student is gaining all this momentum in their studies and their private lessons and their ensembles, and that’s all built in to the school. And if they take a gap year, it’s really hard to stay disciplined and continue all of that, and so that in that instance, it’s rare unless they go to a structured program that’s built for that when they’re participating in an arts program that has all of that infrastructure built in. And I think it can be valuable for students who who are still wanting to explore and they they haven’t quite found the right fit for them. And but again, I In that instance, I think it still needs to be. There has to be structure to it. There are many programs that have that are specifically for music specialization. And so I think it’s a great opportunity to get those skills, and also just to get some real life skills. And then when they go back to school, when they start school, they’re definitely more equipped. But I’m going to let Mel talk about. Her, her plan with that?

Melissa Mulligan 30:03
Yeah, I’m so glad you’re here, though, to to ground me in the reality of the classical academic side of things, because that is not where I spend a lot of my time. I do have a structured Gap Year program, which is a structured program with a longer, kind of independent study with professional mentors. I because I’m not in the classical world, typically, except for some classical vocalists who roadmap with me here and there, I will tell you I’ve never worked with a student who’s regretted a gap year under any circumstances. However, I work with, or I hear from hundreds of students a year who regret rushing the decision. It’s much more common to regret rushing picking the obvious major. Well, I already said I was going to do this, so I guess I’m going to do it whatever, like a lot of regret around college debt after graduation, a lot of regret about rushing the process. Never regret around taking time. So if you’re considering it, I’m a fan of you considering it, and then what I usually have my students do is basically Liz live as if you are a professional in your field now, because in my world, it’s entrepreneurial, so you don’t need anybody at the gate to let you in, right? So we are, you are writing, recording, releasing material. If you’re not releasing it, because maybe you’re doing something more like video game scoring or whatever. You’re building your network, you’re building your pitch deck, you’re researching people on idbm, and you’re pitching like you’re just getting into the fold as soon as we both feel like you’re ready to and if you need that year to just do more training and wade in a little bit more slowly, then that’s what we do. But it is literally like, okay, the assumption is just that you’re going, and then if you do decide to apply, you’re a hot commodity because you’re independent. Your focus is very straight. You know who you are, and you have this professional experience and life experience, like Dr G mentioned,

Dr. Alaina Johnson 32:17
I love that. I just wanted to hop in and say something real quick when thinking about a music gap year, because your child’s musical we tend to say, what’s a music gap year? Which it should be, if that’s what they want to do. But I think it’s really important to to also make sure there’s some deeper conversations around why are you considering a gap year? Because sometimes the parents reason for thinking about it, or the child’s reason for bringing it up, may not be aligned, and if that’s what’s going to happen, that’s when you get that messy kind of feels like a wasted year that wasn’t organized or or the understanding of what it was about. So one of the things I want to ask when somebody says that is, I’m going to say why I am a fan of a gap year. I think there’s so much pressure on these students to go right away and agreed in the contemporary or, I’m sorry, in the classical world, it’s very different. But in the contemporary world, like you can take that gap year and you can have a structured gap year, but I want to know Where’s this coming from? Is it coming from? Actually, I just don’t even feel ready for school yet, and this is, this is my way of saying, but I don’t even know if it’s a gap year. I just know it’s I’m not ready year. Is it students? Is it a your teens? Way of saying, I actually don’t plan to go to college, but I just can’t battle you about this anymore. So we’re going to call it a gap year, but my intention is that it’s going to be much longer than a year.

Speaker 2 33:39
Is it a lot of gap era plan, yes, yes, lifetime, exactly.

Dr. Alaina Johnson 33:45
Is it a gap era that we’re really angling for? So that’s another thing. When you’re planning in the contemporary world, if your your student is bringing up a gap year, or you think it’d be good for them to have a gap year, that’s fine. Make sure everybody’s on the same page about I think that is key to having a very successful gap year or gap era, if everybody’s on the same page about the why and what the goal is, and the and and accepting as a parent that the goal can simply be I need another year of maturity. I don’t feel ready. I’m overwhelmed by the thought of going away. I’m overwhelmed by the thought of the discipline it’s going to take to be in college. I’m a musician. I really struggled academically, and I’m just tired. I’m just really tired. And so that is fine, but just making sure that that conversation is being had so that you can plan a really effective gap period that is going to land you in a place where you feel better for the time, as opposed to looking up and saying, oh, you know, I wasted my time.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 34:44
You know, I want to add, from a college counseling and career counseling standpoint as well to that question, gap years. I’m a huge fan, and I one of my kids who insisted on going, and I actually thought that he would have benefited from. Um, a gap year. He went to college for three semesters, and then just made an informed decision to leave. And he’s in a field. He’s a computer systems engineer, and he didn’t need a college degree to do that. That’s what he was studying at college as well. So he went ahead and left. So I’m a let me start with I’m a fan, and you know, Mel was on my podcast just recently. If you didn’t hear that episode, please, you know, check it out. We’re happy to send it over to you. I’ll give you at the end how you can find out more about the podcast in general. But you know, she advocates for don’t major in music necessarily, major in something else. So I know I’ve got people on who some are going to take, the musical path some are going to do other majors that you have done the work to know that they also are aligned with who you are and where you’re headed and your aspirations, but building on what Dr Atlanta just said, What will you do during that gap year? You know, colleges frown up on. I sat around and played video games. If you apply to college during the typical senior year of high school, and then take the gap year and you’re deferring enrollment for the gap year, you can really you’ll have time and space to really go and do some very cool things. If that gap year means I’m not necessarily deferring enrollment, I don’t want anybody to forget that you’re still going to be researching colleges, applying to college, writing tons of essays in that fall of that gap year. And now you’ve, you’ve sort of like you’ve got a limited amount of time to do other things, right? So keep in mind that if you are college bound and you do intend to go, are we applying in 12th grade and deferring, or are we going to go ahead and apply during our gap year? And it can be tough, too. I’ve had kids that I know who they do their Gap Year overseas. They’re in different time zones, they have technical, technological issues, connectivity issues, to get the things done. So so that’s a really important consideration. The next question that I am not at all adept at answering, although I’m going to build on something that I heard Mel say. Next question is, what are some important subject and subjects and skills that are required for music careers that aren’t covered well in college? And what look at Mel, one of the things I heard her say is, you’re an entrepreneur, and as an entrepreneur myself, is the only thing I can add to the answer of this question, I started two businesses that I built and sold. I own two other businesses that I’m building. And I love entrepreneurship. Along with that comes independence, risk taking, executive functioning. And now, Mel, you started jumping up and down. I’m just going to toss it right over to you.

Melissa Mulligan 38:08
In order to really understand this, I think it’s important to understand the career roadmap for the contemporary recording industry today, and there are some similarities to those of you who are doing classical, jazz and things like that. So bear with me, because there is definitely overlap today. So it used to be that if you were moderately visible, like super talented and kind of moderately ambitious, you could get discovered by someone who would take it from there. You know, the old cliche that I’m gonna make you a star kid, like all that type of stuff that we see in all the biopics from the 60s, 70s, 80s and even the 90s. So you you could get discovered, and the rest would be taken care of for you. Flip of that is you had to get discovered in order to have a career, you needed to meet a gatekeeper, magically, that magic man, right nowadays, for good or for ill, it’s entirely opposite. You need to be talented and passionate enough to write, record and release your own material regularly. Develop a fan base on your own. Develop a network. I saw somebody, I think Warren, was in the chat talking about had my friend, talking about collaboration and networking, you have to build a community of musicians. You’re in your own age and in your own lane that you’re going to collaborate with. You need to build this thing, and you will need to figure out how to have a sustainable income along the way so you can stay with it long enough so it’s really it’s. Starting to pay you back eventually, once you work your way, really high up, so that you’re independently successful, the industry will find you. They’re out there looking for you right now. At that point, you might not need them. You might be like, I got this. There is not one thing I mentioned in that list that requires you to have a piece of paper with a degree on it. There’s also not one thing on that list that you must learn in college you can but you don’t have to. And there are some things on that list that college doesn’t do well, including music production, there are fine programs out there and fine majors, but a lot of students that I work with are finding that they are rudimentary compared to what they’ve been able to learn and develop on their own or with more advanced mentorship. So I would argue it’s the more expensive, more time consuming way to get great at music, production, songwriting, developing yourself as a songwriter with a unique voice and perspective can sometimes be diminished by writing across a bunch of different genres for a grade from an older person. I’m not saying that’s not a skill. It, for sure, is a skill. But a lot of people that I work with who’ve graduated with degrees in songwriting are very lost and confused about who they are and what it is they have to say and what it is they what artistic direction they want to pursue vocal performance can often be and I’m a vocal coach, but I will tell you, majoring in vocal performance if you want to be an original artist, can sometimes get in your head a little bit more than it needs to. I’m not saying you don’t need to have a healthy voice, but you don’t need four years and $200,000 at a fancy institution to have a nice vocal coach in your life. So these are reasons why I often try to pick apart a lot of the assumptions around I want to be this, therefore I must major in this in order to become this. This is why it’s really common in for people I work with who often major in other things, whether that’s music business or PR or English or psychology or they make up some sort of hybrid, you know, that serves exactly what they want to do. I’m not here to convince anybody not to major in what you want to major in, but those are the things, in my opinion, that it’s like a square peg, round hole problem. A lot of times, if that’s the career you want, you’re trying to find the perfect college program for it. I hope that answers your question.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 42:53
Lisa, yeah, no, in Dr G I was you. I just saw you on mute. I was getting ready to toss it to you, because, as someone that works in higher ed, I’m sure you have things to add to this answer. I’ll repeat the question one more time. What are some important subjects and skills that are that are required for music careers that aren’t covered well in college?

Dr. Christine Gangelhoff 43:14
Yeah, so Mel had some really good points, and so I’m going to kind of come from two different angles. So one is that music programs are changing, especially in recent times, but very slowly. So they’re not changing along with the changing landscape of the music industry. And so there are a lot of missing pieces in the education some programs more so than others, and so a lot of the things that Mel mentioned are lacking in these programs, but just depending on what the student wants, if they want, if their main goal is to go perform in an orchestra, they need to get those skills in that that can be included in a program. But if they want something more entrepreneurial, they’re going to need more skills. I also want to make the point that there are skills that you get in a music program that are valuable no matter what you do. And so time management, collaboration, creativity, adaptability, a lot, a lot of the things you mentioned, Lisa about being an entrepreneur as well, and but one of the things that is difficult for students is they don’t know how to transfer those skills to other areas. They don’t even know they have those skills. Actually, they they’re just in the practice from practicing or doing a thing, but they’re not even aware of these skills that they get. And so I think schools could do a better job of harnessing that and showing students how they can use those skills in other areas, whether they whether they continue in music, or they go another direction. And as we were kind of talking about just before the webinar, it’s med schools. Law schools find music students very attractive because they have. All of those qualities. And so there’s a lot of value in a music degree. But again, it’s not one size fits all. And so, yeah, so I think basically I like to come from both sides.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 45:12
I love that. I’m going to add something, and then I’ve got another question I want to jump to, and then, and then we’re going to take a question from the chat. But you know, we’ve talked here about, what if you major in something else, or, you know, Mel’s like, Hey, have a have a day job, maybe, and and work on your music career. There’s, you know, there’s more than one ways to skin this cat, right? And when you’re thinking, I always say, begin with the end in mind. Think career first. Mel asked that question all the time, and she said that on my podcast about, what are you hiring the college to do for you? And that’s that same way of begin with the end in mind. And so if you would decide, you know, I work with career confused, just to say, what jobs does it look like your personality DNA looks like you would thrive in where? What are the jobs that you look like? We use the Berkman personality assessment for this to say you look like the happy adults who are already thriving in these careers. Now we funnel it down from the world, telling you you can be anything, which, frankly is a lie and overwhelming down to a more manageable list to start doing the research with. When you establish what that may what that career is, not the major but the career is that you want to Dr G’s point, if you decide, Oh, I do want to go to med school, then you’ve got to be sure you get your prereqs done in your undergrad. If you decide you want to go to you want to be a physical therapist or an occupational therapist. I’m naming some fields that have you want to go into pharmacy, you I’m naming some fields that have very specific prerequisites. So when you’re doing the work, and this is why we all say start early, make sure that you’re investigating on the terminal degree, the most advanced degree that you will get. Is there anything that I’m required to do in undergrad to set me up so that if I am majoring in music, I can still use my electives to get these other necessary classes, so I’m set up for success now. Dr G mentioned that at in higher ed, at the college level, many colleges aren’t yet able to really keep up with some of the changes. One of the questions we got was, what are your thoughts on the future of the music industry? Right? What? So if things are changing, I’m hearing rapid change, and you know what? And that’s true. I have people say to me all the time, how does the someone even make a decision with how rapidly things are changing in society right now, and in in the world of work, and in the career development area, particularly, there will be through lines, and you will build it’s going to be building blocks. So I’m sure that that’s part of the answer. But what do you guys think that the future of the music industry actually holds? Who wants to jump in?

Melissa Mulligan 48:12
Okay, the future of the music industry is uncertain at best, always.

Melissa Mulligan 48:23
But I will say this, what what we are seeing is an interesting return to valuing live interactions in person, interactions, in terms of collaborations, performances, etc. I think, you know, it’s a response to all the deep fakes, you know, and all the film. Let’s forget filters we’re into, like a deep fake era, you know, there’s that AI band, velvet sundown that you know, just does really well on Spotify, even though they’re not real. So, I think that’s a beautiful thing. And here’s what I know, the more the more we train our young adults and our young musicians to be entrepreneurial, creative problem solvers, the better they will be in this ever changing industry. I mean, we’ve all been around for a bit. We’ve made changes, we’ve pivoted, we’ve picked up new skills. We’re doing zoom webinars, which is something that none of us were trained to do back when we were learning, you know, our trade. So it’s just more and more and more of that. And I hear a lot from parents, and I think someone in the chat was talking about like, concern over like, Oh, my teen isn’t great with executive functioning. Of course not as a teen. These are not talents that you’re born with. There are skills that can be taught. There are apps for that. Now, like, I have so many young adults that are like neuro. Divergent that are using a lot of different apps to support their calendars and their availability to keep up with their social media calendars. Like it’s all figure out able. It’s all figure out able. But the bottom line is, I think the music industry will continue to be a beautiful place for those who are very creative and very entrepreneurial and really work on developing their musical skills and aren’t afraid of tech. There will be work. There will be a place for you. There will be an audience for you. But I’m curious what Dr G has to say, because we’ve had some interesting conversations about like the conservatory world and orchestras and all of that. So yeah, I’m excited to hear what what you think?

Dr. Christine Gangelhoff 50:43
Yeah, I think I totally agree with all of your points. And I feel like the music industry is growing and kind of shifting at the same time, and it’s adapting, like many industries are, to AI and automation and all of that, and people are worried about their jobs disappearing, but they’re just changing. And but the thing that is always going to be in demand is creativity, interpretation and emotion, and AI can’t replace all of that, and artists have all of those things. And so I feel like but like Mel said, having those tech skills is going to become more and more important, and so students who are able to blend their artistic skill with tech fluency and entrepreneurship is our will be unstoppable, in my opinion. And I’m just going to give a couple fun examples of that I’ve just come upon well, I’ll give one example. So in I did a presentation recently on global trends in the arts, and one of the examples I gave of a 21st century artist is this oboist who studied at a music conservatory, and she is a conservatory trained. Oboist was planning on going into performance and but as she went through, she was be learning that she had other interests, and one of which is content creation. And so she developed a really strong social media presence and started exploring that. And she ended up doing some business, doing some business studies, and she’s now the content creator to a major American Symphony, and she said she just can’t believe this career even exists. And she’s so happy, she feels like she’s living a dream, and that that career didn’t exist, you know, not that long ago. But just being able to recognize your strengths and just to have an open mind and to explore those things, I think there’s going to be a lot of opportunity ahead.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 52:47
Definitely. Yeah, thinking outside the box is crucial in this process. It’s when I am working with a student who say their job match list says, Oh, you look a lot like a happy teacher. That’s one of your first page matches, right? And they’re like, I don’t want to be a teacher. And in this they usually have a very valid reason why they don’t. But I go, What does a teacher do? Right? What they help people there. They plan lessons. They work with you. They like, we unpack what it really means to be a teacher, then we look for other jobs in the adjacent space. So I love Dr G, that example of like, we’ve got to think outside the box, and we’re we’re doing building block blocks that are going to build on one another. And that same aviation, I guess it’s just top of mind, and it was good the interview yesterday, so when it comes out in September, but in that same aviation, one, she talked about a woman who is a transplant coordinator, and they have to work in aviation, because often the organs and the surgeon have to get to the where The where the surgery is going to take place, the transplant surgery. So it’s just another example of, let’s, let’s think outside the box, like what might be possible if we hold our preconceived ideas in an open hand and we really think outside the box. So okay, Dr Alaina, one for you. I’m going to toss it back over to you so often, you know, we hear the term helicopter parents, and sometimes snow plow parents would be another term. And and we all, I know any of us that our parents go we aspire to not be that. And sometimes we just can’t help ourselves, can we? So what advice do you have for parents? Recommending giving support to their students and with independence, and in what level is appropriate. How do you support them with decision making? So it’s like, how independent do. Let them be, and knowing that we’re all nervous as parents when we’re going through

Dr. Alaina Johnson 55:04
this stuff, that nervous part, isn’t it? Yeah, so much of the helicopter it comes from fear. We are in a society right now where our teens are expected to do so much. They’re expected to have all these things going on. They’re supposed to excel at multiple in multiple areas of their lives. And there’s almost this feeling that if my child’s not doing all of the things and doing all of the things well, they’re going to get left behind. And so when you have all of that pressure going on, it’s very hard as a parent to say, I don’t want my kid to look up and resent me because they got left behind. I don’t want to feel like I didn’t do everything I was supposed to do, but what I say often to parents is to take a deep breath and really hear what I am hearing from college professors. There are and this goes if you want a gap year, because the same issues are going to be the present. As well being an entrepreneur, all the skills you need for that, we have created a generation of students, if you’re helicoptering them, who are not ready for college. They don’t know how to be independent. And if we’re looking at what the parents goal is, which is, I want to have a successful, thriving, happy, launched human being, if you’re doing everything for them, if you’re helicoptering them, you are doing them a disservice. You’re not giving them the opportunity to develop this very skills that we want them to have going into college. If they don’t know how to manage their own schedule, it’s not going to magically develop sometime between May and September when they suddenly go off to school. If they’ve always had someone call and remind them that, oh, you’ve got a lesson this afternoon. Nobody’s going to do that for them in college. So I always kind of look at parents and I say, I get it, but at the end of sophomore year, you really have to think about, I have two years, and what kind of adult do I want my child to be at age 18. Do I want them to know how to manage their own schedule? Do I want them to be able to get themselves out of bed on time? Do I want to know that even when their schedule is overwhelming, and I work with a lot of Mt kids and I or musical theater kids, I you know all of these things if you’re in the arts, especially the performing arts, as a musician or musical theater, your schedule is crazy. Your schedule is very intense you have, and that’s, that’s the scheduled things that’s not including all the hours of practice you have to do for the scheduled activities. And you know, if you’re not a conservatory that’s just focused on that, you also have traditional academics you’re supposed to be balancing in there so those skill sets, the time to be teaching them and the time to remind yourself is this is exactly the kind of place I want them to learn how to do this, where there’s a soft place to land, but you gotta let them land. You gotta let them stumble. You gotta let them fall. You gotta let them drop the ball here or there, because that’s also how you learn resilience. If you haven’t learned gosh, I decided that it was really important to stay out much later than I should have last night, and I didn’t practice, and I walked into this audition and I just wasn’t ready. Then I would rather them do it there than when it’s something huge in college that could really change the trajectory of what’s going to happen for them in that college. And then they can also learn, how do I be resilient? What do I do? What do I learn from this? There’s skills like even just going to the teacher and saying, Hey, I messed up. May I have another chance? The answer may be no, but just learning how to do that, we have a lot of soft skills that our kids don’t necessarily get if we don’t encourage them to get it. So I know there’s lists out there that speak to the next same thing, but I talk about it. I was like, you know, does your 18 year old know how to make a doctor’s appointment for themselves? Well, it’s the same thing. Does your 18 year old know how to go and advocate for the for themselves? If this is a really bad match for them who their instructor is, or the class they’re in is bad for them, or it’s not meeting the goals of what they wanted, do they know how to do those things? So what I say to parents is, I really want you just like you were saying before about what is the end goal when it comes to parenting. What is the end goal? And I say end goal of when they launch, whether that’s into a gap year or into college. Do you still want to be calling them and reminding them of what they need to do? I’m guessing, no

Lisa Marker-Robbins 59:22
now my second episode of my podcast ever, and if you listen to it, do not judge the host of that one, because I’m sure now that we’re in the 180s they’re a lot, bit better. But she’s the author of a book called How to raise an adult, and it’s a wonderful reminder that we are raising adults we want. We’re not raising a child. We want to raise up an adult. And I just, I love, it’s a great book, but I love the name of that. I’m going to take marna’s question from the chat, because while her rising junior and. Marna, bravo to you. Just finished sophomore year, and you’re on here so you’re working ahead. I love it, giving yourself space so it doesn’t have to feel as overwhelming and wild. So rising junior who wants to study jazz guitar, that’s specific to her. But I think this next part of the question for anyone who’s going to major in music applies to anybody. I’d love to hear about the flow and timeline of the application slash audition process, and if sample lessons are highly recommended and how they impact admissions. So I’ll start with just the timeline, and then I’m going to toss it to Dr G you I always say you’ve got to have the essays, the applications themselves. By the way, the common app is always open to begin working on it. The personal statement, main essay that you have to write. It’s virtually always the same, is a personal narrative, and usually option number seven is write about whatever you want to write about so you can get working early on those things, which I highly recommend, because you’ve got to have the applications in well in advance of the deadlines to get a spot in the audition process and so from an purely application standpoint, start early, get those essays written, get in the Common App. Dr, G, I’m gonna toss it over to you.

Dr. Christine Gangelhoff 1:01:33
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more the importance of starting early and that that’s especially true for music students, because as they get into the process, just more and more things come up, of pre screens and auditions, extra essays, artistic statements. So the earlier in the process, the better. So then when it comes time for your senior year, you can really focus on finalizing your portfolio or getting ready for your auditions, and you’re not going to be completely bogged down with getting last minute essays and all of that. So now is a great time to start and as I can also touch on trial lessons. So I I personally think they’re very important, and depending on what the student is going to study, if it’s an instrument, etc, because the fit between the teacher and the student is very important. It’s a one one on one relationship, so it’s very close, and if that’s not a great fit, it’s not going to be the best experience for you. And so trial lessons are great, and it’s a good it goes both directions, because it gives the student a sense of how the professor teaches, and if that’s a good fit for them. And it also gets, gives the professor, well, a number of things. It can give them an opportunity to see the student, give them feedback, and see if they’re teachable. And then also to see if, depending on the size of the studio, if you know, sometimes they have hundreds of these, so they may not remember you, but if you’ve incorporated their feedback in your audition, that’s something they would be able to look for. But overall, it’s definitely a thing that you should explore, and I highly recommend it. It can be a virtual audition if you can’t or, sorry, a virtual lesson if you can’t travel to the campus, and most faculty members are willing to accommodate that fantastic.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 1:03:24
Okay, another question that came in in the chat. So we mentioned these skills. We mentioned maybe where there are gaps in college curriculum if your child struggles, struggles in all those areas that we mentioned, entrepreneurship, executive functioning, risk taking, self starting. Can they still be successful in these independent music careers? Another way to ask, what are some music related careers that might be, that they may be better suited for, if it’s a student who’s not as strong in those areas? Just mentioned,

Melissa Mulligan 1:04:02
can they be still be successful if they struggle in all of those areas? Yes, you’ll still need to work inside of those areas. But just because you’re struggling doesn’t mean that you can’t do it. I would venture to say 95% of the professional people in the record industry would tell you they struggle with all of those things. So we can talk more about this, Melissa, but like getting some support, getting a structure, getting the right tools and people in place and in your life to help you grow in those areas, as well as support you like we’re not saying everybody here is going to be like Jeff Bezos, I hope not, because he probably doesn’t make great music, you know. So you don’t have to be the best there ever was. But yeah, you’ll have to figure. Figure out some pathways through for yourself, no matter what you want to do in the music related field. I can’t think of music related careers, per se, where you don’t have to become better in those areas than you are when you’re 16 or 17 years old. I think that’s just something that will like, let’s just address it. Let’s just address it and work on it, and you’ll be fine. That’s my basic opinion. But struggling with it is not indicative of the fact that you shouldn’t do this. Like, we all struggle with it. We’re artists, you know.

Dr. Alaina Johnson 1:05:36
I want to add to what Mel’s saying too. I think a lot of times when parents ask that and I get it, one of my children has ADHD, and let’s just say I do not I’m very decidedly type A and organized. And Whoo. It is hard sometimes to watch him not be organized. But one thing I remind myself, and I like to remind my clients, is there is a big developmental difference in our brains between 18 and 25 so will my son that has ADHD still have ADHD at 25 Yes. Will he be so resistant to acknowledging where his deficits are, using all the tools that he needs to use at that time, getting support in areas that he needs to know? Because I if you have a little bit of an older child, there’s this remarkable thing that happens somewhere between 18 and 25 Where at 18 you might have been thinking, oh gosh, we’re never going to get there. And then by 25 you’re starting to see this different adult human being. So the success can absolutely be there, and just because you may not see it yet at 1617, 18, because they’re still struggling and their brain is still developing that again, the issues may not go away at 25 but their ability to say, You know what a music career is fundamentally important to my happiness, so I am going to have to incorporate these other tools in order to be successful. I have found that in general, they are much more open to doing that.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 1:07:00
Okay, it is after eight o’clock. Can’t believe it, and we’ve got a lot of questions that we did not get to so we’re going to take a moment for each of us to just tell you how you can connect with us. We all love to support the whole family through this process, and so I’m Lisa Marco Robins. I my website, and my social handle is flourish, F, l, o, u, r, I, S, H, flourish coaching. CO I’m going to put a landing page in the chat if you want to click through to find me. Mel’s been on the podcast. Dr G’s been on the podcast. Dr Alaina’s coming on the podcast. So if you’ve got you want to figure out what that major in career is, I am happy to connect with you and just help resource you so. Dr G, the organizer of this wonderful event, thank you so much. We’ve loved it. People have stayed on a long time. I know they’ve loved it. Go ahead, yes.

Dr. Christine Gangelhoff 1:08:09
Well, thank you all for just being willing to be a part of this brainstorming idea I had. It’s been amazing. I feel like we cover all of the bases. So, yeah, so you can reach me at my website, is my soundpath.com and or email at info@mysoundpath.com thank you everyone.

Melissa Mulligan 1:08:32
Mel, I’m so grateful to you. Dr G and you, Lisa, I had a blast on your podcast. Dr Alaina, we go way back, and I’m thrilled that you were able to join us today. And thank all of you for hanging out with us. I can see all the cool people are still here in the chat. So I have a gift for those of you who were here or who happened to watch the replay all the way through. If you go to my my little page here, a little landing page, and you use the work with Mel form, just mention in it that this is how you found me, and I will gladly give you like a complimentary laser focused portfolio review so you can the form allows you to submit Some music, some videos, some questions, your goals, etc. I will spend some time with it. I’ll reach out with my thoughts. Maybe I’ll make you a response video back. Maybe I’ll say, hey, let’s do a complimentary consultation, because I think this requires more conversation, but I really want to give that to those of you who were here who feel like what I was talking about made sense to you and like you could use some more help and individualized guidance. Okay?

Lisa Marker-Robbins 1:09:47
And Dr Alaina, and while everybody’s been chatting, I’ve been going to your websites and putting them in the in the chat.

Dr. Alaina Johnson 1:09:55
Well, thank you so much. Dr G for organizing this. Thank you, Lisa for hosting. Thing. This has been amazing, as Mel said her and I go way back so always. Thank you to just being amazing. The way to reach me, it’s on the chat. It’s my organization. Is called parenting talent. You can go to parenting talent, talent.com I also have a book out by the exact same name, parenting talent. And I love working with both young people, but also really supporting parents who are struggling to kind of understand what is going on, and how am I going to do this, or kind of what we were kind of ending with, how do I help my child, who might be neurodivergent, make this leap into this world that they really are passionate about, because I really want them to be happy, because I think that’s all of our goals. Wonderful.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 1:10:40
Well, thank you everyone for giving up a summer evening because we know those are valuable and supporting your family your kiddos as they figure out how to have a confident Launch out into this world where they can thrive. Thank you, everyone. Take care.

Dr. Christine Gangelhoff 1:10:58
Thank you.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 1:11:05
A music career can be more than a dream. It can be a real, viable and fulfilling path when approached with the right blend of vision, planning and support. As our panel made clear, there’s no single right route to the success in the music world, but there are strategic steps to take now so your child can explore possibilities without closing doors. If you want to equip your student with Career Clarity they need, whether they’re passionate music or another field, watch my free training at flourish, coachingco.com, forward slash video, you’ll learn how to help your child align their college major and career decisions so they launch into adulthood with confidence and purpose. Thanks for joining me. Keep taking those small intentional steps towards big clarity for your young person’s future.