#41 Nursing Program Admissions Transcript



Jon Rice  0:00  

More and more institutions, including USF are launching Master’s entry MSN programs. And these are designed as MSN. So Bachelor of Science in Nursing, you are a registered nurse at the end programs for students who got a bachelor’s degree, not in a nursing related field. And we’re seeing more and more students choose this path. And we’re actually directing students this path because in some ways, it’s better, they’re done faster. And at the end of it, they have a master’s degree. And often that is a better option than a student who has a bachelor’s in something else, trying to go back for a second bachelor’s degree, which we see a lot surprisingly for nursing. So this is why I say there are lots of pathways to get there be a direct entry, pre nursing transfer, or even that masters entry MSN that can be accelerated to get to that nursing degree.


Lisa Marker Robbins  0:49  

The interest in nursing programs is soaring. And that many schools admission to the coveted direct entry programs has become highly selective. John Reiss works at admissions at the University of San Francisco. And he shares that University of San Francisco admits around 60% of all applicants to the university. But for the nursing program, they are only able to admit approximately 20% of the applicants. And this deep dive episode on nursing program admission. You learn about the different pathways to becoming a nurse, and what your team can be doing to secure a spot and a program as John pulls back the curtain to give us an inside view to help guide your family’s college bound journey. I’m Lisa marker Robbins and I want to welcome you to College and Career Clarity, a flourish coaching production. Let’s dive right in to a great conversation with John. My guest on the show today is going to help us demystifying a complicated college major that I often refer to as restricted and families get very surprised by that. So John Rice from the University of San Francisco, works in admissions wearing several hats, transfer, he’s got his own region. So we’ll just say he’s in that admissions area. But he knows the deep dive on not only the University of San Francisco’s nursing program, but how nursing programs are handled at a wide variety of schools at all universities. So John, welcome to the podcast.


Jon Rice  2:37  

Thanks so much, Lisa. It’s great to be here and excited to chat about everything. They’re saying. Yes,


Lisa Marker Robbins  2:42  

I think maybe a great place for us to start is there a University of San Francisco if a high school senior doesn’t declare nursing as their major? And if they aren’t admitted to that major, then that kind of takes that option off the table for them? And that would be a direct admit and a restricted major, correct?


Jon Rice  3:05  

I don’t want to use the phrase takes it off the table. I really believe there are a lot of pathways to nursing. And that’s there are you will see today is that there’s a lot of ways to get there. But in short, yes, if a student applies for nursing as a high school senior to the University of San Francisco is not admitted to nursing. They cannot change majors into the nursing program at a later point. So if they ended up reaching back out to us, this does happen and say, Oh, I really want to come to USF. Can I come for biology? And they were academically solid? And we say sure. Then they’re at the institution and then a year and they say, Can I change to nursing? The answer is no. The only way you can go into nursing as a first year freshman student, is by starting at the beginning, you can’t change halfway through your college career.


Lisa Marker Robbins  3:48  

We are not picking on the University of San Francisco, because you’re not the only school that does this. I mean, this is not uncommon, right?


Jon Rice  3:55  

Correct. And, and the reasoning is actually pretty sound. The program as we’ve set it up is we keep using this term direct entry. So for your listeners or viewers. Direct Entry means that once you’re admitted to the institution, as a nursing student, you are guaranteed everything. So you’re guaranteed all your classes, you’re guaranteed most importantly, all of your clinical hours in the hospitals at USF, we guarantee about 900 hours or so, in the hospital setting. I always joke as long as you do what we tell you to do, you will be a nurse in four years. The negative is because that program is so set out and because there are so few spaces given to us by the hospitals. That’s really where the selectivity comes from. We can’t take someone halfway from USF because they won’t have taken the right sequence of courses unless they were planning all the way and we just there’s no way to do that. So that’s how it plays out for us.


Lisa Marker Robbins  4:45  

I love that context. Because I think on the family side or on the independent college counselor or school based college counselor side, we just know that it’s a restricted direct entry may Major and it’s either you get it senior year or you lose it. And we don’t always understand what’s behind it. And it feels really unfair to the family. Like, that’s just not fair. But when you put it that way, you’re doing it to set your students up for success.


Jon Rice  5:15  

The key point I always like to make clear to families is we’re not trying to be selective for the sake of being selective. When you look at USF, for example, overall admit rate is in the 60s, low 70s, percentage wise, for nursing, it’s about 20. And so that doesn’t feel like a match test. That’s, in fact, probably really confusing to a student who doesn’t know the details. And it is all about supply and demand. And if we take it more broadly, I was looking at some data earlier. And this I think, is a couple years old, but on the western half the United States as a whole, there are only 94, Bachelor of Science in nursing programs in the entire western half of the United States. In comparison, if you’re looking in the south, the southern region, there are 246. So we have a supply demand problem when there are folks from California or the West Coast, particularly that are looking at nursing programs, there are just not as many programs as there are students that are interested. And then part of that on top of the filament of our programs is a limited number of spaces in hospitals. So we could in theory, take more students, but then we couldn’t guarantee you your clinical hours, which are what you need to become a nurse. And that would just result in extra time and money spent. So it is a tough balance to reach. But I always like to encourage families to realize this is not the college is being mean, this is not where they’re playing a rankings game. In most cases, nursing is literally just a supply demand problem.


Lisa Marker Robbins  6:36  

Thank you for sharing that it makes so much sense to me when you put that context to it. And those numbers are staggering. I sit here in Cincinnati, Ohio, right. And you’re like, well, for in the western part of the US, we’ve got a lot of kids that are like, hey, ready to get out of the snow of the Midwest. And they might actually want to go out west as well. And that kind of sets us up to for when students are doing college visits, they really need to be asking the right questions. And I I preach this all the time. But that’s a fantastic example, as an overall as an institution, you’re admitting over 60% of students who apply. But for nursing, you would be considered highly selective because it’s that below 30, below 25%. And that is true of many majors at many universities. So listeners, write out that list of questions that you’re going to ask when you’re doing those college visits. And don’t ask them just at the admissions office, but ask them about the particular program. I mean, this could be the case for Engineering, Computer Sciences or other somewhat restricted or very restricted majors as well. So while you guys have that direct entry program student applies as a senior and all of our listeners who have been on for a while know that I believe that you can start the work sophomore year of high school to know if nursing is a fit, but some don’t realize that or don’t. So you guys are directed entry applies the same year get in or don’t get in. That’s it. Now other schools take a pre nursing, I think it would be helpful for you to share, like, what are the positives about pre nursing admission? And what are some of the concerns? Obviously, you’re in an institution that prefers direct admit, so you might have some concerns with that pre Nursing Pathway? What does that look like? So a student applies to nursing and a pre nursing college senior year and then play that out.


Jon Rice  8:34  

For us. The positive just initially with pre nursing is that it tends to be less selective. Initially, there are more spaces available. Although I could sort of say it just defers the stress later. But that’s just my opinion. So essentially, you are admitted into a what we call lower division coursework for nursing as a pre Nursing Major. Typically, in your sophomore year, you are going to be required to apply again to that schools, upper division, nursing major, and not everyone gets in. And this is a major point I always make. Why I say it’s sort of deferring the stress in some cases is you will get to start nursing. But initially, there is that large group of pre Nursing majors that are then competing for a limited number of upper division nursing spaces. And that actually is often defined by the same thing except with direct entry number of clinical spaces. So that’s because that’s when you start your time in hospitals, they are limited by the number of spaces. So you’re not guaranteed a spot in that case to continue the program. And you have to compete with other applicants. So the benefit is again, if you are looking for a path to nursing, it is a pathway. But you have to mentally prepare yourself that it’s not a done deal with a pre nursing program that you’re going to have to work really hard in this first two years to be at the top of your class so that you can continue in the program and frequently for our transfer programs. Just to give some context, we will get pre Nursing majors from other colleges who apply to transfer to USF for our Graeme, because they’re worried about not getting admitted to the upper division nursing major at their college. So, again, not a bad thing, it is another pathway to nursing. But it’s important that students and families know the difference.


Lisa Marker Robbins  10:12  

Well, I think that goes back again, to asking the right questions, I would ask a school that’s pre nursing, how many kids do you typically take pre nursing? And what percentage of those go on? And one of the things too, that I’ve noticed is, pre nursing programs will say, here’s the minimum requirements to be considered to advance into the upper level coursework, clinicals, all of that. And then the other question is, but what was the average of the kids who got to go on are the students I should quit calling them kids? So of the students who? Yeah, I know, I have some young adults in my family right now. So I’m sure they don’t want to be called. My 21 year old daughter would be like, mom, so those 20 year old 19 year olds, they might have met the threshold. But what was the average of the students who are admitted to nursing and went on to do the upper level coursework and into the clinical? Because I, I’ve seen a huge gap in those numbers.


Jon Rice  11:16  

Absolutely. I mean, I think particularly for nursing as a whole, minimum eligibility is not the name of the game. And folks always ask me, What’s the GPA, the minimum, the minimum is often much lower than the average. And I’ll give you an example for transfer specifically, because we will have students who transfer in the minimum GPA to be considered a 3.3. But the average GPA was closer to 3.9. So if it’s 3.3 applies, and this was very good for transfer students, but for those transfer students, the student applies at a 3.3, they are technically eligible to apply, they are not going to be competitive. And so I think for your students that nuance and this is one of the frustrating parts about nursing, there is a lot of nuance that the students and parents have to understand. And I would even go back to the Direct Entry Program, same thing, at our institution, the average GPA of an admitted student to the university as a whole, versus the average GPA of an admitted student to the nursing program are quite variable, there’s quite a difference. And that’s going to be true, to your point earlier with things like computer science and other schools, any of those direct entry programs. But particularly for nursing, you can see astronomical differences where you might think, oh, that institution is on my light blue list, I’m probably going to get in there, and then find out well, not if you’re going for nursing, then it’s highly selective,


Lisa Marker Robbins  12:33  

right? Or a handful of other majors as well. So if a family picks up the phone to call admissions or sends an email the students sending, I always say students are sending these emails. Yes, go ahead and say something about that. Because


Jon Rice  12:52  

this is your chance. We want to hear from your student, it shows maturity, it shows that they’re taking their process seriously. And I would say doubly so for nursing, I mean, talk about a profession where in four years, your student is going to have actual patients lives in their hands. We need someone who is mature and taking the process seriously, which means parents you can email with your question separately, but we want to hear from your student, that’s the most important person in this process.


Lisa Marker Robbins  13:14  

I actually I say, unless it’s a income based financial aid question. Parents get out of that communication line and let your kid speak. But your student do it. Yes. Yep, absolutely. So a student can easily get the data for the University of San Francisco or any other university as a whole average AC T, LSAT, GPA, all the things. If they email, the general admissions, admissions at whatever the name of the university is, or pick up the phone and the student who’s working in the office answers, they’re not going to have information like the averages of who was actually admitted, what’s the best way to uncover the person to bring that type of a question to.


Jon Rice  14:02  

So I think with most institutions, not all, but most of us are going to have an assigned admission counselor for your region. And that’s the person to reach out to and ask, and I always appreciate that question. Because we want to be transparent. Now at my institution, we’ve worked really hard to actually start putting all of that very publicly. So we can link to this in the show notes. We have a first year nursing page that shows all the acceptance rate statistics, the GPA statistics for the last four years in a chart, so we’re trying to be as transparent as possible for institutions that aren’t there yet. Email your admission counselor and ask most schools will tell you what that reality is. Because to be honest, I don’t want to waste your time and I always say to students with especially with nursing, this is not a lottery. If you are extremely below profile for an institution. I remember I had a really difficult conversation with a parent at a college fair once Erin and daughter were in front of me and they were talking about nursing, and the students shared she had a 2.9 GPA. And it was just us and it Tell her you’re not going to be admitted. And the mom was really upset. And the student was really upset. And mom pulled me aside and said, Why would you crush your dreams like that? And I said, I’m not crushing dreams. But I want to be realistic, because it’s not fair for students to hear a holistic admission over and over again, and think, oh, because I have great volunteer hours, they’re going to look past my grades for things like nursing, they’re not you have to be academically eligible, you have to kind of be at that level in order to be admitted, it’s not a lottery.


Lisa Marker Robbins  15:26  

That’s a great point. And actually, you know, if I’m that mom, although that’s hard to hear at that time, I would be thanking you quite frankly, what are universities looking for? And who would be successful in nursing? I know, I’m not gonna name another institution, but like, they just have a bottom line for nursing, you have to have all A’s and B’s and biology and chemistry doesn’t matter if it was college prep, or AP, you know, Oh, you took AP, but you got to see that takes you out of the mix. And that is just that institutions, one of their many thresholds. But when we pull that curtain back, and we go, Who’s your ideal student? What should students be concentrating on in high school? And who are you looking for? What does that look like?


Jon Rice  16:16  

We go with the fundamentals. It has to start with academics, Nursing is a hard major, it is challenging, you are taking difficult coursework, you got heavy hours, and so academically, we need to know that you are prepared to succeed. So what I look for initially, and what we look for the rest of San Francisco starts with the sciences, we are looking for a rigorous lab science completion at my institution, that means you actually have to have taken chemistry. So if you don’t have chemistry on your transcript, that’s it you can’t be considered. We look for chemistry and then either bio or physics. On top of that, a minimum, my recommendation is the golden trifecta. If you want to be a nurse, you should take lab science with bio physics and chemistry and have all three and do as well as you can. This is important because sometimes students will switch out one of those for anatomy or physiology thinking, Oh, that sounds more like nursing. We can teach you anatomy and physio when you get to college. But the best predictor of success that most nursing programs, my colleagues, other admission officers say this as well, is biology, chemistry and physics, those core lab sciences. So crushing those is going to be really helpful to start beyond that. We’re certainly looking for at least three years math, four years of math, ideally, this is a math science field. So you still, we still need to see that you can do that. And then general overall success academically because it is somewhat of a holistic field. And that there’s a lot of, I would say social science involved with that bedside manner, psychology that’s involved as well. Beyond the academics, the second thing I’m looking for an application is has the student thought about why they want to be a nurse. And this is a little bit more wishy washy for your listeners. But if you’re going to this field, where again, in four years, you will have people’s lives in your hands, you had better have a good reason for why you want to be a nurse. And it can’t just be I want to work in health care, because there are lots of wonderful health care professions. It can’t just be they want to help people lots of opportunities to help people we’re looking for students who have put put the thought in particular on the essay of like, why they want to be a nurse.


Lisa Marker Robbins  18:18  

That’s what I was gonna ask. So you guys have that? Why my major essay? Do you? Okay, for nursing on there for all majors?


Jon Rice  18:26  

We do it for nursing only. So for nursing, we asked a more general question, we asked what will be your responsibility to others as a Jesuit educated, registered BSN nurse. And so we’re doing two things there. One is we’re trying to figure out if we thought about why you want to be a nurse, then secondly, we’re trying to figure out why do you want to be at our institution. So that’s, that’s important. The last thing I will add is we’re looking for someone who’s demonstrated their capacity to serve others. And this is really important. When we’re talking about involvement, which I think students always get caught up in, like what’s gonna look good on my activity sheet, my activities list for nursing, it doesn’t always have to be volunteering in a hospital. We know that right now, it can be really hard to get a volunteer opportunity in the medical setting. And so well, that’s great thing more broadly, what are ways I can demonstrate to the admission office my sense of care, like who to nurses mostly work with older individuals, folks that are in their time of need. If you can volunteer at a nursing home, if you can volunteer with young children, any vulnerable populations, that’s a great way to demonstrate your care or sense for others. And that’s something we look for as well in the in the process.


Lisa Marker Robbins  19:29  

You’re going to be discerning that through essays, extracurricular list, and academics, but particularly that like that care side, I’ve had students where I’ve said, you know, be a camp counselor for kids who have physical disabilities or something like that would be another one. We actually have a previous episode that I’m going to link to in the show notes where I had Louise Arabia who she does really do you know, always says she does no med school advising with college students, but she spoke really to health care careers, health sciences broadly. And she said the same thing like, are you comfortable with touching people caring for people? Okay, so I want to go back because we didn’t really hit this too hard. If you guys we already said this is directed MIT. And there’s no way in if you start at the University of San Francisco, into nursing, if you weren’t admitted as a high school senior, and that is not uncommon. It’s what I call a restricted major, but you do hold some transfer slots for students. So this gives our listeners a couple more questions to ask and all the institutions they visit. So tell us a little bit about that transfer process. Because whether it’s at the University of San Francisco, or maybe at another school, this might show another pathway into nursing.


Jon Rice  20:55  

It’s really about thinking about nursing as a multiple pathway, Major, there are lots of ways to get to be a nurse, it’s just figuring out the one that’s going to work based on what’s available to your students, and frankly, your students profile. So for us, we spent save about 30 spaces Each fall, and other ad spaces each spring for transfer students coming from other colleges. And certainly that’s intentional, we know that not everyone is either academically ready at the time that they’re applying as high school senior, or they didn’t know that they wanted to be a nurse, because that is a big decision to make at 17 or 18. And so for that the good news is we have this faces. The bad news is that it is as if not more competitive to be admitted as a transfer student, those requirements are even more strict, because in that case, there are very specific classes, you have to meet with very specific grades. And that’s going to be true of most transfer institutions. But it is another pathway in and I’m glad that we are able to offer it. So ask your colleges when you’re out visiting, what are the different pathways? Is it direct entry, great pre nursing, okay, if it is direct entry, is there a way to transfer in later on? And importantly, how long is that program? So I will add, the other thing to know is that if a student transfers to USF, no matter how many college credits they come in, it’s a three year program, at least because of the clinicals, we have to build that. And so that could mean you’re talking about five years to a bachelor degree with your community college or other college time built in. So it’s just something else to be aware of, as you’re thinking about what are the various ways to get to nursing?


Lisa Marker Robbins  22:27  

That is an excellent point. So it’s so funny, even when we were talking before we started, and you were like, and we even have at transfers slice in the spring, I was like, wow, you’re like, Yeah, and it’s still more competitive. Yeah, if you’re applying as high school seniors, so transfer doesn’t always mean easy. So you could have a kiddo that didn’t get in as a senior to nursing, maybe start at your local community college or another four year institution, and then but their heart was on the University of San Francisco campus, so they can give it a shot. But it’s going to be even more rigorous and may extend their time. You know, that’s, that’s another thing that I talked to families a lot about, like, changing of majors changing of institutions, it really can extend that four year into a five or a six year degree. And so you’re also not only making a college major and career decision, you’re making a financial decision as well. Would you say that the majority of kids who get students who come in as a transfer, are they getting in and out in total of four years? Or do they end up taking a little bit long, it’s


Jon Rice  23:37  

likely more so they are I can guarantee could say, because at USF it’s a sequence program, which means we tell you exactly what you’re taking every semester, you don’t get a lot of freedom there. Once they get to our institution, depending on the semester, they enter as a transfer, it is always six or seven semesters. So it’s always three to three and a half years period. However, I cannot control the course availability at the community college prior. And I know that’s been a big challenge for students. So sometimes the classes that we are looking for, in our case, it’s psychology, anatomy, physiology, microbiology, or hot classes. And so that may take two years for the students to get through all the requirements at the community college. And so it may take longer than that altogether. And that is something to think about. Now. The good news in California is that our community colleges are extremely affordable. So the financial factors not as bad here on the west coast. But the time factor is real. Can I mention one more path that I Oh, yeah, absolutely is becoming more and more popular. Still selective. This is true across the board. More and more institutions, including USF are launching Master’s entry MSN programs, and these are designed as MSN. So Bachelor of Science in Nursing. You are a registered nurse at the end programs for students who got a bachelor’s degree not in a nursing related field. And we’re seeing more and more students choose this path and we’re actually directing students this path because in some ways, it’s better, they’re done faster. And at the end of it, they have a master’s degree. And often that is a better option than a student who has a bachelor’s in something else, trying to go back for a second bachelor’s degree, which we see a lot, surprisingly, for nursing. So this is why I say there are lots of pathways to get there be a direct entry, pre nursing transfer, or even that master’s entry, MSN that can be accelerated to get to that nursing degree.


Lisa Marker Robbins  25:25  

That’s a great point about the MSN because we hear a lot about the accelerated BSN. That’s going to be for the person who’s going to end up holding two bachelor’s degrees, the end, but probably a better time and money investment is find that MSN program. Absolutely. I love it. Well, this has been super enlightening. Is there anything I’ve missed? Because I don’t know, I only know enough to be dangerous.


Jon Rice  25:54  

Yeah. So I think there’s there’s one piece I want to touch on, I think it’s on the front of mind of a lot of students right now. And that is where to standardized testing. fit into all of this with the test optional movement. But with nursing, particularly, I will start and put my car to the table, my institution, we are test optional. We’ve been test optional, since before the pandemic, including they’re saying it’s not a defining factor. But I wanted to take a step back and say that for nurses, when you think about testing, this is about more than the STA T or AC T. And that’s because I think it’s important that students think about the reality and parents and families out there, as you’re listening to nursing is a testing based profession, no matter how academically brilliant your student is, you have to be an excellent standardized test taker to make it in nursing. Even if you don’t take the SATs, your AC t, because throughout nursing, you are going to take standardized checkpoints to be able to continue in the program. That’s true across the board. And then at the end of it, you have to take the NCLEX certifying exam, which allows you to be a nurse, it’s sort of equivalent to the bar exam. But for nurses, if you don’t pass that no matter how great you did nursing program, you cannot be a nurse. So when students are thinking about nursing as a field, it’s important they reflect on their comfort with standardized testing. So whether or not you plan on taking the SATs or AC T whether or not you submit those scores, you should ask each individual school should I how to use them. Think about that reality of this profession. Because that is a lot of your life is going to be defined by how well you can test and share this information in that fashion. The other thing I will add that I just want students to think about is the social reality of being a nursing major, you were doing four years of healthcare major, this is tough. And so your experience in college may look really different than other students in college. And it’s not that I want to scare anyone. But most programs have GPA requirements that you have to meet. Maybe you’re in that pre nursing program for the first two years, you’re trying to crush it. So you can stay in the program. It’s a testing every profession, like I mentioned earlier, you’re gonna have clinicals at different hospitals, you may have a little bit less of a social life, you’re doing a medical base major in four years. And again, I’m gonna keep saying you people’s lives in your hands, it’s going to feel different than your friends and other majors at the institution. And you have to be ready, you’re ready for the mental and emotional toll that being a nurse will take time because you’re going to see things and handle things that most of your peers are not going to have to deal with at this age and this early in their college journey.


Lisa Marker Robbins  28:19  

Yeah, that’s such great advice. Going back to what you said about nurses a testing based profession, that was a fantastic way to put it because one of the lessons inside my launch Career Clarity course, just one of the lessons is on careers that require you to pass a test to be licensed. And so anything and this is why you’ve got to investigate early start this work early is any profession that requires a license, you’re going to have to take a test. So looking for ways to opt out isn’t always going to best serve the end in mind. We actually, just recently I just recorded it and in the sequence that I’m planning to post these. I have Brooke Hanson and she’s out in California from Super tutor TV on and we did a deep dive on test optional. And she really kind of said the same thing. Like a lot of people are looking at test optional as a pass, you know, or get out of jail free card. But you really could be shortchanging your student if you if you go out like that. So Well, John, right. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Just even if you don’t use it for admission, like go out there actually George Washington University. They went test optional in 2015. And they’ve always said it’s test is good experience and is going to you know, having a good test score in your back pocket can be very valuable in many institutions, and even at some test optional institutions, too. So, John Rice, you’re a wealth of information. Thank you for taking time to help our family As because this is going to be a popular episode. It’s it is of high interest to students who think they want to be nurses. And on my side and your side we know is often misunderstood.


Jon Rice  30:12  

Absolutely. Thank you so much. And I wish all the prospective nurses out there, good luck. It’s an amazing profession that you’re thinking about. Don’t let this episode scare you. Hopefully this empowers you to do the planning that’s required to take this next step towards healthcare.


Lisa Marker Robbins  30:27  

Absolutely. And we’ll have all the places to get in touch with you in our show notes, in case they want to learn about the University of San Francisco’s BSN, or MSN or Transfer Pathways, and they’ll know how to get in touch with you. Thanks, John. Thank you. Don’t let what John share discourage you if your teen is on the path to becoming a nurse. Yes, it is a highly competitive process with rigorous coursework. You can use the information you gain in this episode to plan well in advance and have a healthy college list for application. In the show notes. I’ve linked to how you can connect with John, and to the full list of accredited nursing programs. For those interested in nursing. Your college bound challenge this week is to explore the list of accredited programs and pick a few to look at more closely. If you’re listening to this, and you began to wonder if nursing is truly your students best fed. And maybe they need to be sure or look at other options. doing the work and getting clear while in high school is possible. I’ve helped over 3500 students do so through my launch Career Clarity program, which I’ll link to in the show notes. So if you aren’t yet sure on the right major, your challenge this week is to head over and learn more about my program. My goal with these college major and career close ups is to resource families who are in the process of making major decisions so that these decisions are informed decisions. If today’s episode was helpful to you, please share it with a friend who might need this too. And when you head over to the show notes for all those important links, we do me a favor by rating and reviewing College and Career Clarity. Doing so helps me resource more families so they can move from overwhelmed and confused to motivated clear and confident about their teens future.